The International Criminal Court is seeking further information from institutions in the country in order to decide whether or not to bring charges against those involved in the post-election violence in Kenya. The ICC prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said this follows the killings and attacks which led to displaced persons after the announcement of disputed presidential poll results last December.
. . .

“>http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=573#post573

–~-
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:11:38 +0300
From: Robert Alai
Subject: ICC probes Kenya over killings

From: Ragabone

Ladies and Gentlemen

Mungiki and Kenya National Youth Alliance are not the same thing, and do not have the same agendas.

This is the first thing you need to know before debating on which way forward.

Research for yourself.

– – –
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Negotiate with Mungiki?… Yes, the only way out.

– – – – – – – – – – –

From: Cleo Mbeo

Hey Ragabone,

I don’t need to carry out research. Njuguna actually clarified on TV last week that they are Mungiki and when they were banned they had to take up the name Kenya National Youth Alliance. This is fact and it was loud and clear for the world to hear. He also made a call for their
spiritual leader to be released from jail and made a demand for his wife Nyakio’s killers to be identified. Please confirm which research brings you to the conclusion that KNYA and Mungiki are different?

Cleo

– – –
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:32:41 +0300
Subject: RE: Negotiate with Mungiki?… Yes, the only way out.

Leaders of the outlawed Mungiki sect are pushing for a meeting with Prime Minister Raila Odinga. apparently to give him a ‘damning’ information on some Cabinet ministers in ODM and PNU”. I believe Mungiki leaders have observed a different leadership strategy of Raila Odinga when instead of choosing to wage battles with Mungiki, he extended a peaceful gesture. Everyone wants peace and no one can throw himself into a war for no apparent reason. While we want to believe that this is true in the case of Mungiki, their genuineness to this cause may never come to light and may never be realized if they still stick to their signatures.

Mungiki has been associated with extreme terror including beheading, skinning of people’s heads, killing innocent children, intimidation of the general public and the list is endless. In other words Mungiki has chosen a path of fighting the public and not the injustices committed against them by the government. Just the other day Mungiki burned people alive who had nothing to do with land crisis and social injustices. All over suddenly Mungiki want to blame this on some ministers. Yes this may be true but is not a good reason enough to meet the prime minister who is still learning his way around Mungiki that has visited state house many times.

For Mungiki to succeed in their new transformation and even for the meeting to achieve the goal of peaceful coexistance and equitable distribution of resources, Mungiki has to transform itself to a pressure group or into a political party. Their leaders must change tactics and attempt to market popularity rather fear. At such a point, the PM could meet them on their capacity as a political front with whom forstering an agreement and relationship may advance the agenda of ODM. The meeting should be a political matter rather than a government matter.

At such a level, Mungiki leadership should meet with ODM leadership first just like Mungiki has done this before with PNU. They cannot seek a meeting with the PM as this may paint him in a different light to the coalition partners. This talk must be at a party level and not individual.

However, if Mungiki want to meet the PM at government PR level, the protocol would require the presence of government officials including the ministries concerned. Mungiki must therefore present their demand to the government and the government must be willing to negotiate with Mungiki or selectively yield to Mungiki demands.

This is tricky for one Mungiki’s demands is lack of land and jobs. Mungiki’s demands are the same things that all Kenyans are asking for. However, Mungiki is backing this demand with force.The other day Mungiki stated that they have the guns. This is a very dangerous group to meet. Before Raila meet Mungiki in his capacity as the PM, Mungiki must vow to down their force tools. Meeting Mungiki as it is now will require that other armed groups be met and their demands honored. This may cause mushrooming of many of such groupings.

However, if Mungiki can tone down its violence, transform to a political party with political strategy, it would all the political sense in the world for ODM and not Raila to meet them. Indeed this will be one of the accessibility pathway to central province that ODM has been craving for.A coalition with Mungiki as a political party would be extremely beneficial to ODM that the one they are in with PNU. PNU is a patched coat while Mungiki is an brand new suit that everyone may be interested buying but cannot afford.

Dr. Barack Abonyo

– – –
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:39:13 +0000
From: barack abonyo
Subject: RE: WHY IS MUNGIKI FOCUSED ON MEETING RAILA

Apart from disagreements over portfolio balance, the fight for executive powers is emerging as the underlying cause of the current impasse over the Kenya Cabinet.

It is as if the issue of two centres of power that dogged the constitutional reform exercise from 2003 to 2005, had been reawakened by the passage of the National Accord and Reconciliation Act, 2008, which requires President Mwai Kibaki and Prime Minister-designate, Raila Odinga, to share executive power in the composition and running of the government.
. . .
http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=564#post564

–~-
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:43:07 +0300
From: Robert Alai
Subject: PNU fear of a ‘diluted’ presidency, was the obstacle to power-sharing

From: James Owaka

Tonny,

I as well as many Kenyans share in your frustration. The so called ‘mungiki’ are running a well oiled, co-ordinated and expansive ring of extortion…their modus operandi has outwitted even the savvy sleuths of our time. The only time Police have responded they arrested a few hundred of guys. Which begs the question…thought…..and perception…..of Police and or Government complicity.

I do agree with other people who have said that the Government certainly is not doing enough to contain the group and the that the group seems to have time to plan and implement their acts.

In respect of the supposed negotiation/Dialogue that the Government ostensibly intends to have with this or affiliated Group i guess is an indictment and an act of admission on the part of the Government, not Raila Odinga, that it can not use sheer fire power to bring this group down.

If such Dialogue will keep the wheels of development running in Central and some parts of Rift Valley then Dialogue is a cost effective way of working out the crisis. The people in these areas live in fear and not even the presence of a Policeman with a gun would dissuade them to open their shops when Mungiki have passed on a small note instructing otherwise.

I watched in disbelief the day before yesterday when someone said on TV….Hata sasa tunataka hawa watu watu tawale..serikali hakuna …. na haiwezi.

Would negotiation restore hope peace and tranquility? I guess so!

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:06:57 +0000
Subject: RE: Negotiate with Mungiki?

– – – – – – – – – – –

I personally support the position taken by the PM on Mungiki, how long has the use of force been tried to silence Mungiki? We have had this story ever since the time of President Moi.

I also believe that use of force is not the right solution. Time has shown that Mungiki, is not just a group of thugs, the level of organisation in the group, the oathing process all show that it is a group with a cause. This type of groups cannot be silenced by force. Look at the LRA in Uganda, the Ugandan forces have been using force to try and silence them for almost two decades. When the dialogue process started the armed conflict stopped, what had been tried for several decades by use of force was accomplished in a few weeks..and they are still in the dialogue. Let us hope they come to agreement.

Back home, government has been fighting Mungiki for many years, everytime government uses force, Mungiki goes underground…until the next strike then we are back to square one…PM calls for dialogue, in a matter of minutes/hours all violence stops, this is unprecendented in the fight against Mungiki…It is always better to discuss issues openly. The happenings in Kenya in the last few months should teach us something. Sometimes it is necessary to think outside the box. Even negotiating with what are thought to be “thugs”..in any case why are we calling them thugs? simply because we do not understand their concerns/problems/grievances…

I firmly believe in engaging in discussion and the power of dialogue.

John Matogo
Strathmore University
Nairobi, KENYA

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:38:34 +0100 (BST)
From: John Matogo
Subject: Re: Negotiate with Mungiki?

– – – – – – – – – – –

From: Elijah Kombo

Kenya has got structures that dictates everything on governance. The law takes precedence of all illegal structures which is the reason why the Sabaot thing, Chinkororo, Mungiki et are all illegal outfit that falls on the same group as Al Queida. Law and order are two things that cannot be separated and negotiated. All Kenyans subscribe to the law of the land. The existing structures define how we rule, govern our institutions frm social, economic, political, and cultural.

Mungiki is a social/political misfit without an agenda to justify us thinking inside the box with them. They do have any cause or course to fight for. They should follow the law of the land. They under living under the same umbrella me and you are surviving. Negotiation with Mungiki will bring a very bad precedent and every tribe will also have the same. We fought for our independence, and now what we fight for is ‘ukoloni mamboleo’ through the existing structures within and without. For example if Mungiki thinks things there is a violation of human rights – then they should consider court process or even goig to Hague and talk to thsoe guys to intervene. Harassing, beheadin, killing, raping, drinking blood is pure satanism. Even the devil (if ever existed) is not mad like that! A replica of throwing an innocent child and mother into the burning church. A replica of what the devil commission unveiled of young children being sacrificed. Go back to the Old Testament and read the stories of Balak and Balam in the book of Numbers. Where there is good, there is bad.

I admire Mungiki on the other hand. They are expose some little cowardice by killig innocent people. I bet you, if you have met the adherent of Mungiki, they arovely brothers and sisters living in Kenya under the same conditions we are in. They have only been pushed to a corner where means of survival is not to their advantage. They are fightig for what a madman cannot see…no objective to get Kenya to the next liberation. We are in the next and final dispensation – socially, political, economically etc and Kenya will be again on the world map not this year but after 2012.

Me and you know very well that the current problem now ad after have been brought about by our leaders. The current so called government of national unity will not survive the coming of a crop of poltician who are with sound mind. Infact the truth is that the current unitary government is a hoax that will also die a natural death at some point in time. ITS AN ILLEGAL GOVERNMENT as kenyan did not choose it. We have two illegal leaders – say the PM and the President. When we went to th polls, we were determined to put in place leaders that could listen. Instead power was stolen from Kenyan and pocketed by few individual who have ruled us since great great great even Mzee Jomo Kenyatta is annoyed being within the premises of Bunge. And this is also why i think Mungiki guys are annoyed.

So if we agree that the curret governement is illegal, we will be on the right track to true democracy and last liberation, and much more a dynamic dispensation towards good living. Our democratic institutions have been abused. And if Mungiki are for this course then i shall join them in the past future but not now. They need to be dealt using the law.

Peace is powerful than war. Love is more powerful that hate…..as oe Dr Paul Kay said on the grounds of Uhuru Park.

I get a kick of out of this…..and looking forward to change after drinking blood……..and Lakwena will tell us whether we are on the right track or not.

Do you know the story of Haile Selasie and how he dealt with those opposed to his rule. An enemy is an enemy. Dialogue, and counter dialogue will suffice to destroy the enemy……he invited the Rebels to a state banquet while his army invaded the enemy camp. He praised the enemy while his soldies were surrederig to Haile Selasie’s army. Close to 600 soldiers had accompaNIED THE REBEL TO hAILE sELASIE STATE HOUSE for a banquet. When they went back to their camps – it was finished.

Let us stand against injustices using the already set structures.

Regards

Dr, Sir, Professor, Field Marshall, the CGH, Conqueror of the British Empire
HE Idi Lakwena Haile S

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:23:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Negotiate with Mungiki?

– – – – – – – – – – –

John,

Before force on Mungiki or any other organization of
that nature can work, the public opinion must first
favor the state machinery (political leadership,
economy and law enforcement authorities).

But as things are in Kenya, negotiations as you say,
is the best way forward. But it will not only be about
negotiations with Mungiki. It will be about
negotiating a lasting settlement of every citizen
between 18 and 35 years.

Because first, we need to tackle the problem of
economic disparities, share among all of us, the
little we have and then raise the stick whenever
someone goes wrong.

Going to war with the poor, people with nothing to
lose, is going on a self suicide mission. That’s why
America quickly pulled out of Somalia but will not let
go of Iraq and Afghanistan. Oil and the gateway.

-James

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Ololo Mamboleo
Subject: Negotiate with Mungiki?… Yes, the only way out.

Avana va Andimi,

The Prime Minister, His Deputies and Ministers have
been sworn in. A good thing.

However, we must remember that ODM now comes to the
most difficult part – to DELIVER.

And remember, Mwananchi can be very unforgiving if
they will not deliver. And ‘pnu’ knows this. ODM
should ask themselves;

‘What is it that ‘pnu’ can do to frustrate our ability
to deliver and how best can we counter this?’

Hon.Raila has been there before whe he was Minister of
Roads and Public Works. And the irony is that he will
now sit a floor above the Minister of Finance at
Treasury Building.

I noted Kibaki’s remark during the swearing in
ceremony:

‘Usifikiri wewe ni clever sana kuliko kila mtu. Kwani
unafikiri hawa watu hawajasoma? Hakuna clever!
Hakuna!’

Hear that?

I did not take that lightly.
Whom or what was he referring to? What is the import
of this remark?

I would like to gloss it over but it it keeps coming
back to haunt me.

Njonjo once said:
We can forgive, but we cannot forget.

ODM has the best Ministries that can enable them to
demonstrate how best their policies could work for the
country and its people.

I wish the ODM team all the best but they should
remember, a wolf is a wolf and can never be a tame dog
even though it may appear to be for a while; just
until the full moon rises after 7pm.

For those of you who are religiously inclined:
Remember when Nehemiah was rebuilding the walls of
Jerusalem, they did the work but had their weapons
strapped to their hips. the rebuilding was a good
thing but there were some people who were not happy
about the reconstruction.

It is not over, it is only beginning. From draughts to
Chess.

Sande
HR Activist
VIHIGA

– – –
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sande Olocho
Subject: RE: ODM and The Grand Coalition – Ukweli (Edited)

From: Simon Mbuthia

Like I said, I am not disputing what Orina is saying. All I am asking,
is that he ‘cites’ his sources. For a scholar’s work to be recognised,
(s)he must cite their sources, otherwse the publication is no different
from a fable. There are a thousand and one theories doing their rounds
among wananchi. All I want is to be able to know what is truth and what
is not. Some other sociology scholar could also come up with his version
of the story about this whole Mungiki thing. Should that happen, whom
would you believe? I am sure politicians have been using the Mungiki to
sort out their political issues, but that doesn’t mean that anyone can
just come blurting whatever they will about it and not let us know how
they got all that information. All I am asking is *how was this
information obtained? *I am not saying Orina is lying.

Before you jump into a hole, at least get to know how deep it is first,
if you can’t look.

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:24:24 +0300
Subject: Re: MUNGIKI?????????Orina speaks out

– – – – – – – – – – –

From: Sidney Matiko

The Way I See IT!!!

Instead of these asinine “morons” called Mungiki running up butchering guys
in the name of a group advancing their mediocre phiolosophy, I dare them to
stand up and start an economical company called Munguki.

Their business would be in barber shops and saloons. They will convince
folks that it is stylish to wear dreads. Let them modify them. They may also
try and promote traditional wares. This is viable. This is a better way for
which they can earn a genuine living. I bet, this way, sponsors may come
along to support them.

LET THEM not use this short cut of asking for sympathy….. If all Kenyan
youths took it they way of Mungiki, what would be of our country Kenya. I
challenge them to group

– – –
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:04:02 +0300
Subject: Re: MUNGIKI?????????

Did anyone see Raila on T.V saying that he wants to negotiate with Mungiki (read Terrorists?) if we set a precedent of negotiating with these guys then they will keep demanding more ad more………

There is a guy who appears every day on T.V either issuing ultimatums or speaking on behalf of
Mungiki…why is he walking can’t he be arrested?

Tonny G.

– – –
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tonney Gobanga
Subject: Re: Negotiate with Mungiki?

– – – – – – – – – – –

Negotiating with these killers is the last thing the PM should be doing. Giving these guys this level of legitimacy means they are recognised entity and they will forever blackmail leaders. PNU messed up enough by bringing them to fight the “other” tribes during the election meltdown! Raila
should not be dealing with these people. They should be meeting our law enforcement officials, not the PM

– – –
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:45:37 -0500
From: Fred
Subject: Re: Negotiate with Mungiki?

Kuria-Mwangi kjmwangi@… wrote:

Former Defence Minister Njenga Karume silently led a group of Mungiki leaders led by the slain wife of Mungiki leader Maina Njenga to State House exactly two weeks before the General Elections. The details of the meeting held in one of the rooms in the Nairobi State House remain scanty, but even on the day it was held it was leaked to the media, including the respected British Broadcasting Corpration (BBC) but due to the intensity of the rumours that had characterized the 29007 general elections Editors prudently ignored the story.
. . .

http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=556#post556

–~- – –
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:54:54 +0300
From: Robert Alai
Subject: MUNGIKI: THE INSIDE STORY OF THE RIOTS

– – – – – – – – – – –

bobawuor wrote:

Rev,

To whom will MUngiki soldiers be accountable after they join the army, get superior military training, and have access to the national armouries?

Shouldn’t every tribe train its militia in readiness for this hydra?

+Fr.

– – – – – – – – – – –

The Armed Forces ,ie Airforce, Navy and Army, and even the Police, must be an equal opportunity employer.

In their enforcement of recruitment guidelines, ALL tribes must be given equal access to serve. Only then can we save ourselves from things like mungiki infiltrating the forces.

Oto

– – –
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: odhiambo okecth
Subject: Re: MUNGIKI: THE INSIDE STORY OF THE RIOTS