—– Original Message —–
From: asego2002
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
my cut-o-map tells me that most of the world is un-cut. so what is all this thing about the cut when its actually not the norm ?
the only country in east africa in which most tribes do the cut is kenya. infact only the wagisu (bukusus of uganda) do the cut in uganda. the obsession with “cut or no cut” has been a lie peddled over the last   45 years to deny the un-cut a place at the seat of power. there are more un-cut-ted tools that got the population of the world to 6,602,224,175 than cut-ted ones…
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— In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, “Wuod Lando” <wuodlando4@…> wrote:
 Mig. Ojanga:
 You are absolutely correct in your remarks below.
The claim that somehow male circumcision prevents contracting HIV/AIDS is not informed with science is complete nonsense. In Western Europe, little male circumcision is practiced. It is particularly done by immigrants from cultures that practiced male circumcision. The same is true in Eastern Europe including Russia. Please revisit what Mig. Putin said about circumcision.
 In Russia, it is considered a primitive practice left to folks in Chechnya and other minorities in Russia. In the former Soviet Union the practice was confined to Asian Russia and some primitive societies. And I can go on and on yet you do not find this madness that male circumcision prevent HIV/Aids in Europe and Russia. Omiyo I completely concur with your observation.
 Wuodi.
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— On Mon, 8/18/08, mrbob_k wrote:
From: mrbob_k
Subject: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
To: kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 2:56 PM
Wuod Lando
In the same vein let me add this observation. In Kenya people who are known to practise homosexuality happen to come from cut culture. Just keep this thought and mull over over it.
Bob-K
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— On Mon, 8/18/08, odhiambo okecth wrote:
From: odhiambo okecth <komarockswatch@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [kca_main] Re: [KOL] GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
To: kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com
Cc: letters@guardian.co.ke
Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 11:40 PM
This is one area that we must handle with care.
As a Luo people, we used to practice the removal of the lower teeth as a sign of initiation to adulthood. Others used to cut their ears, others used to cut the foreskin, while others used to do it differently.
As we catch up with the pace of the current world, I would not suggest that the Maasai culture is better than the Kikuyu culture. Nor would I suggest that the Pokomo culture is superior to the Luo culture.
As we celebrate the various cultures, we must not look down upon ones culture. In this vain, I would not go for the other culture which has been alien to mine since Jesus came to save mankind.
The Right Hon PM might have come up with this purely on medical grounds, with the belief that the cut organ will help with the spread of the HIV/AIDS. But this is one area science will keep misleading Africa.
Those who invented most of the scientific theories are white scientists. And in their cultures, most do not cut their organs. So why would we want an African to cut his organ as a mechanism of minimizing the spread of HIV/AIDS?
No. God created man in his own image, and if he so desired that we have a cut foreskin, he would have made it such all the way from creation. Let us not pretend that we can be more knowlegeable than God in matters of creation.
To this extent, the Luo realized that God was supreme in His creation, and as such, we stopped interfearing with God’s will. We stopped the removal of the 6 lower teeth and reverted to be whole human beings in the image and likeness of God as he intended us.
Odhiambo T Oketch
Komarock Nairobi
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Date:Â Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:06:54 -0700 (PDT)
From:Â odhiambo okecth
Subject:Â Â Fw: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
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 ——– Original Message ——–
Subject: Vs: Fw: Re: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
From: “Paul Nyandoto”
Date: Tue, August 19, 2008 7:55 am
Guys,
I had said ealier that our present politicians think through their pocket, mouth and stomach. In all these chain the BRAIN is completely left out. Male circumcision does not prevent HIV/AIDS. Take for example a country like Finland which has the lowest number of HIV/AIDS cases in the world and they do not cut male foreskin, so how did they manage to control the spread of this HIV/AIDS. The answer is they used scientific method and good knowledge on how this deadly virus hibernates, spreads and is contacted and used those knowledge to stop the spread of this virus on their population. When will we Africans start using our own brains to make something reasonable in Africa or Kenya?.This madness of circumcision is primitive and is not what people should do to control the virus from spreading, there are already medical guidelines on how to control this virus from spreading so why can`t our fellow Africans plus leaders tell the common man the truth. Why is Raila trying to be all at once a kikuyu?. How many years have luos lived without circumcision?. Where was this virus in the 1960 or 1970s?.As a prime minister I would have expected Raila to bring high medical services in Nyanza, disposible surgical tools, disposible, injection needles, scapels, glooves, high powered disinfection machines and atleast high efficient medical ambulances in Nyanza with good medical equipment, machines which can purify infected bloods which can be used incases of accidents or bleeding. Good polyclinics for infected mothers and pregnant women. I did not expect a prime minister to come out with this nonsence of circumcision in the year 2008 when people already know more about HIV/AIDS, virus and disease than in the early 1980s.
Paul Nyandoto.
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From: samokello@ . . .
Subject: RE: Vs: Fw: Re: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBODate: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:14:57 -0700
Daktari,
Â
To the extent that a cut can be one of the series of measures used to slow down the spread of this killer disease, let’s go for it. Those incredible medical measures and scientific approaches to curbing the spread of AIDS sound good, but when was the last time a kid in Keumbu or Kakdhimu heard about them and their effectiveness. I imagine that when Mr. Odinga talked he had more than just people like you and I who happen to be privy to the science of AIDS. He had a deep Kenyan village in mind.
Â
Incidentally, I’ve heard a lot of people dismiss the veracity of the cut as a tool in the fight against AIDS. Are there any conclusive studies done to date to point us in the direction of truth?
Â
Sam
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Could male circumcision reduce HIV incidence in the UK?
Rice B, Delpech V, Evans B.
Department of HIV and STIs, Health Protection Agency Centre for Infections, Colindale, London, UK.
We consider the public health relevance of three recent African clinical trials showing male circumcision (MC) to reduce female-to-male transmission of HIV for the UK. Although heterosexually acquired HIV infections now account for the majority of new diagnoses in the UK each year, it is important to note that when considering the public health relevance of MC for the UK a large majority of these infections are acquired abroad. Men who have sex with men (MSM) remain those most at risk of acquiring their HIV infection in the UK. The efficacy and effectiveness of MC among MSM and in particular its protective role in unprotected anal intercourse between men remains unknown. Any future consideration of the role of MC in reducing HIV incidence in the UK should not be at the expense of weakening existing effective interventions.
Â
Male circumcision for prevention of heterosexual acquisition of HIV in men.
Siegfried N, Muller M, Volmink J, Deeks J, Egger M, Low N, Weiss H, Walker S, Williamson P.
South African Cochrane Centre, Medical Research Council, PO Box 19070, Tygerberg, South Africa.
BACKGROUND: The findings from observational studies, reviews and meta-analyses, supported by biological theories, that circumcised men appear less likely to acquire human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) has contributed to the recent ground swell of support for considering male circumcision as a strategy for preventing sexually acquired infection. We sought to elucidate and appraise the global evidence from published and unpublished studies that circumcision can be used as an intervention to prevent HIV infection. OBJECTIVES: 1) To assess the evidence of an interventional effect of male circumcision for preventing acquisition of HIV-1 and HIV-2 by men through heterosexual intercourse 2) To examine the feasibility and value of performing individual person data (IPD) meta-analysis SEARCH STRATEGY: We searched online for published and unpublished studies in The Cochrane Library (issue 2, 2002), MEDLINE (April 2002), EMBASE (February 2002) and AIDSLINE (August 2001). We also searched databases listing conference abstracts, scanned reference lists of articles and contacted authors of included studies. SELECTION CRITERIA: We searched for randomized and quasi-randomized controlled trials of male circumcision or, in their absence, observational studies that compare acquisition rates of HIV-1 and HIV-2 infection in circumcised and uncircumcised heterosexual men. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Independent reviewers selected studies, assessed study quality and extracted data. We stratified studies based on study design and on whether they included participants from the general population or high-risk groups (such as patients treated for sexually transmitted infections). We expressed findings as crude and adjusted odds ratios (OR) together with their 95% confidence intervals (CI) and conducted a sensitivity analysis to explore the effect of adjustment on study results. We investigated whether the method of circumcision ascertainment influenced study outcomes. MAIN RESULTS: We identified no completed randomized controlled trials. Three randomized controlled trials are currently underway or commencing shortly. We found 34 observational studies: 16 conducted in the general population and 18 in high-risk populations. It seems unlikely that potential confounding factors were completely accounted for in any of the included studies. In particular, important risk factors, such as religion and sexual practices, were not adequately accounted for in many of the included studies.General population study results:The single cohort study (N = 5516) showed a significant difference in HIV transmission rates between circumcised and uncircumcised men [OR = 0.58; 95% CI: 0.36 to 0.96]. Results for the 14 cross-sectional studies were inconsistent, with point estimates for unadjusted odds ratios varying between 0.28 and 1.73. Six studies had statistically significant results, four in the direction of benefit and two in the direction of harm. The test for heterogeneity between the cross-sectional studies was highly significant (chi-square = 77.59; df = 13; P-value < 0.00001). Nine studies reported adjusted odds ratios with eight in the direction of benefit, ranging from 0.26 to 0.80. Use of adjusted results tended to show stronger evidence of an association although they remained heterogenous (chi-square = 75.2; df = 13; P-value < 0.00001). Only one case-control study was found (N = 51) which had a non-significant result [OR = 1.90; 95% CI: 0.50 to 7.20]. High-risk group study results:The four cohort studies identified found a protective effect from circumcision with point estimates for unadjusted odds ratios varying from 0.10 to 0.39. Two of these studies had statistically significant results. Two studies reported adjusted odds ratios, both protective with one being significant. The chi-square test for between-study heterogeneity was not significant (chi-square = 5.21; df = 3; P-value = 0.16). All eleven cross-sectional studies reporting unadjusted results found benefit from circumcision, eight of which had statistically significant results. Estimates of effnal studies reporting unadjusted results found benefit from circumcision, eight of which had statistically significant results. Estimates of effect varied from an unadjusted odds ratio of 0.10 to 0.66. Between-study heterogeneity was significant with the chi-square = 29.77; df = 10; P-value = 0.0009. Four of these studies reported adjusted odds ratios ranging from 0.20 to 0.59 and all were significant. One additional cross-sectional study only reported an adjusted odds ratio in the direction of benefit which was statistically significant. All three case-control studies found a protective effect of circumcision on HIV status, two being statistically significant. Point estimates varied from unadjusted odds ratios of 0.37 to 0.88. One reported an adjusted odds ratio showing a significant protective effect.Adverse effects:No studies reported on the adverse effects of circumcision. In most studies, circumcision had taken place during childhood or adolescence before the studies commenced. REVIEWER’S CONCLUSIONS: We found insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men. The results from existing observational studies show a strong epidemiological association between male circumcision and prevention of HIV, especially among high-risk groups. However, observational studies are inherently limited by confounding which is unlikely to be fully adjusted for. In the light of forthcoming results from RCTs, the value of IPD analysis of the included studies is doubtful. The results of these trials will need to be carefully considered before circumcision is implemented as a public health intervention for prevention of sexually transmitted HIV.
PMID: 12917962 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
1: HIV Med. 2008 Jul;9(6):332-5.
Male circumcision for the prevention of heterosexually acquired HIV infection: a meta-analysis of randomized trials involving 11 050 men.
Mills E, Cooper C, Anema A, Guyatt G.
St Paul’s Hospital, British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, Vancouver, BC, Canada.
Objectives Observational studies and a small collection of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) suggest that male circumcision may significantly reduce HIV transmission between sero-discordant contacts. The Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) and World Health Organization have recently announced recommendations to scale up male circumcision in countries with generalized epidemics and low levels of male circumcision. However, no meta-analysis has been conducted to determine the effectiveness of this intervention. Methods We conducted a systematic review of medical literature, and included any RCTs assessing male circumcision to prevent heterosexually acquired HIV infection among males. We used the DerSimonian-Laird random effects method to pool study outcomes. We calculated the relative risk (RR), risk difference, number needed to treat (NNT) and I(2), all with 95% confidence intervals (CIs). Results We identified three RCTs that met our inclusion criteria, involving a total of 11 050 men. The pooled RR was 0.44 (95% CI 0.33-0.60, P<0.0001, I(2)=0%, 95% CI 0-35%). The risk difference was 0.014 (95% CI 0.07-0.21), yielding a NNT of 72 (95% CI 50-143). Conclusions Male circumcision is an effective strategy for reducing new male HIV infections. Its impact on a population level will require consistently safe sexual practices to maintain the protective benefit.
PMID: 18705758 [PubMed – in process]
Circumcision and HIV transmission.
Quinn TC.
National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, Bethesda, Maryland, USA. tquinn@jhmi.edu
PURPOSE OF REVIEW: To review the recent literature on male circumcision and its effect on HIV acquisition. RECENT FINDINGS: The report from the randomized clinical trial of male circumcision in South Africa demonstrating a 60% protective effect in preventing HIV acquisition provided the first clinical trial evidence of efficacy of male circumcision in protecting men against HIV infection. This protective effect was consistent with both ecological and epidemiologic studies which also show a protective effect of 50-70% in men at high risk for HIV infection. Biological studies also demonstrate an increased number of HIV receptor cells in the mucosa of foreskin providing additional evidence of HIV susceptibility in the uncircumcised male. Male circumcision may also have a beneficial effect in preventing HIV acquisition in women and lowering selected sexually transmitted infections in both sexes. SUMMARY: The results of two ongoing randomized clinical trials of male circumcision in Kenya and Uganda are awaited with interest, however male circumcision should be carefully considered as a potential public health tool in preventing HIV acquisition. If other trials confirm the results of the South African trial, implementation of this surgical procedure will need to be carefully scaled up and integrated into other prevention programs with emphasis on surgical training, aseptic techniques, acceptability, availability and cultural considerations.
PMID: 17197879 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
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In recent years we have seen African leaders make conclusive statements over scientific matters that require review of data by those in the field. Here is where United states beats the world. Hearings after hearings are important for men of integrity to put their names on the line for such matters of public importance. Relying on vodoo science, Jacob zuma during a court procession in which he was accused of raping an HIV positive activist said in court ” I left my bedroom after having sex with the woman and taken a shower because this would minimise the risk of contracting the disease [HIV]”.
He also said that he was prepared to marry the woman who accused him. Now ladies and gentlemen, this is the guy who is likely to be the future president of South Africa.
More worse than this is president Mbeki believing in the Deusberg theory that aids does not exist even after the particles of the virus has been isolated. These types of public utterances are either because our leaders get drunk with power and start believing that they are experts in everything. One cannot be a jerk of all trades. Scientific conclusions must be left to scientists of valor not just cook and crook scientists. They must be reviewed by great scientists and published in journals with high ratings.
Â
No one is denying the benefit of circumcision or the non benefits thereof. But for prime minister to publicly state that the cut is good for prevention of HIV, the evidence must be solid. Raila at this point, especially after the election violence should rate himself very high and should realize that his words are gospel to some people. Or to go to the extreme, the words of a prime minister in public should most of the time be policy. The implication of Raila stating that the cut can deter infection in essence strongly suggests that from now on the luos should adopt a new culture of circumcising their sons for the shake of limiting Aids spread. Of course if this was the pandemic diseases targeting such groups then a change of culture is important because culture in itself is always fashioned by calamities or fortunes. But if this is just political retoric then it is in bad taste for the luos who have been vilified for this practice.
Raila himself was almost denied the nomination for the ODM because Kalonzo and the rest believed that he was not a man because they were convinced that he is not circumcised. The point is that this circumcision thing is not just cutting off the foreskin, it is changing an identity. And in the light of the now where the luos are already silently complaining that Raila has left them in the cold and is shifting alliance to the kikuyus, this comment is a spit in the face.
Â
If circumcision was a valid preventive measure for HIV, it could have been adopted by United States and other parts of the world as a matter of policy or a matter of public safety measure. These are the very reasons why such things as vaccinations were instituted. I hate to be on the side of criticising fellow scientists but below I have attached some of the abstracts about circumcision and aids. As a scientist, the studies are wanting and substandard. They are simply reviews on puported evidence and generalized epideomological studies with no hard evidence of an actual occurance. They are not strong hard science that someone of Raila’s calibre can stand on.
Â
A valid test for this theory would be as follows. Take 300 male chimpanzees. Circumcise 150 and allow them to have sex with HIV positive female chimpanzees. If 80-90% of the uncircumcised males and only 10-20% circumcised ones become HIV positive then Mr. prime minister a change of culture will be worth it.
Dr. Barack Abonyo
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Date:Â Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:36:55 +0000
From:Â barack abonyo
Subject:Â Â “GO FOR THE CUT” AGWAMBO NEEDS VALID SCIENTIFIC DATA
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Odhiambo.
I can no more agree with you than to give you all my thumps up for this. I dod not think that to be cut is the way to go, Infact the other day the Jury in Boise Idaho awarded a young man 3 Million dollars when it ruled that his father had no right of having him being Mutilated (Cut) without his consent when he was minor, it rulled that the cut on a young guy without his concent was a real servere and profound violation of his rights. Further the medical field is really devided on this issue with others maintaing the thiught thatt the cut organ is safer to use with HIV/AIDS and at the same time and breath others say it makes no difference. http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_unhappy.html and this http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html
By the way the idea that to cut helps with AIDs is only directed to Africa, Not Jamaica and Not Haiti and not to the West, Even Studies in india was taken in South Africa, read these,
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN0345545120071204 , And it all gained momentum as of January 2007, long after Thierry Mertens talked about it, you could find more details here, http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/vincenzi/ . Anf if you look there was no such result found as postive in the US, But look at Kenya. It was reseacher conclusion but without any conclusive data, I am suprised that the PM bought this. Infact more tribe in Uganda have less than 10 percent cut men yet there has been tramendouse reduction of HIV and yet they never adopted the Cut. From that document you will see no Data for Uganda. the whole issue is hygien.
Take Australian doctors point of research, here http://aidsaction.org.au/content/hiv_sti_health/circumcision.php, they say in that country the Cut cant help. it is all an African concept and deception. If it is not relevant in Australia, US, UK and Asia, why is it relevant in Africa.
We need to educate guys that one day their sons will start fleecing them hard of money for violating their choice.
“JOIN the GROUP to HELP STOP CIRCUMCISION”
Prof
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Date:Â Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:34:28 -0600
From:Â “Brown P. Onyango Dr.”
Subject:Â Â Re: Fw: Re: Re: GO FOR THE CUT: SAYS AGWAMBO
The Misleading Call for Circumcision
By
Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow)
I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world. However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently published in January 2008 in the BJU International. Had it not acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time debating it.
Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among different communities. The same argument has sadly been used to stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo community. Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with devastating consequences to our society.
It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new medicine for the “uncutâ€. This happened a few days after receiving his in-laws from central Kenya. I will not question Hon. Odinga’s wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to discuss casually they way he did. I understand people have started saying derogatively that “Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni†because the PM has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is totally unacceptable!
I don’t intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior. But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices that need to be eradicated without legislation. Practices such as inheriting someone’s wife whose husband, probably died of aids and, other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the entire society. Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant to demean and portray our culture as inferior!
It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt provoked by an assault directed at our culture. Yet, the research is so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage marking a boy’s entrance into adulthood. Sometimes it was performed as a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical. At other times, it is performed as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation, or to increase a man’s attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic castration.
The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of our culture. It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is supported by the existing literatures and research is that circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man.
A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine touch in all but one area of the penis). This same study also compared the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis. The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision represent the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization, 61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction.
And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the “The effect of male circumcision on sexuality†found there was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. I do not want to speculate that some high-level conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand.
Let me further buttress my argument by citing Erickson Paige 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: “In the United States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control ‘masturbatory insanity’ (what the Luo would call, thelo-oyuma!) – the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the ‘polluting’ practice of ‘self-abuse.'”
And here, she describes “Self-abuse” as a terminology commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, “treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment.
But how was this conundrum conceived in the bible. Because the Luo nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them by Ramogi at God-Kwer! The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity. Both Simon Peter and James spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary.
However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of Paul show that the practice was not immediately eliminated. Paul of Tarsus, who was said to be directly responsible for one man’s circumcision in Acts 16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2, said that circumcision didn’t matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to beware the “mutilation”. These teachings and others reinforces the very beliefs we have upheld as a community.
Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated “There are anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are decreased for circumcised males”. Boyle et al. stated that “the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision. They concluded, “Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well.”
The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised, know that they are amputating your foreskin. One should be informed that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically affected and diminished.
Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly painfully tight. Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our people is, “Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual ability; that’s what it doesâ€.
Even the British Medical Association has reported that “there is significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in research.â€[
If circumcision was the panacea to high HIV prevalence amongst the un-cut, how comes that there are many Kikuyus who die of HIV like others? This circumcision thing is just to deceive the Luo people to go for the cut and go on a rampage to verify the claims. We need to be taught how to live responsibly because without that, tumeisha. circumcision will never be the solution. If you already have a flirtious mind, having uprotected sex just because you are cut is to dig your own grave. Let Raila not mislead his people. Since he started being close with Njonjo, I highly suspect that he has joined freemasonry who are the greatest architects of deception. They made us kill our brothers and sisters only to give you a nugu called Grand coalition govt. They love grand things as their grand lodges where they plan the next bloodshed as they have done with world war I&II, 9/11, war in Iraq, the DRC and others. We should expose them before they go far with the deception.
TO CIRCUMCISE OR NOT: THE PARADOXICAL ISSUE OF THE DAY
When PM Raila Odinga declare that the LUO, TESO and TURKANA should circumcise as a matter of medical emmergency in the fight against AIDS, I cringed on several counts:
1. Circumcision is not just a physical process, it is a passage and a spiritual transformation for the youth among those communities in which it is practised.
2. The Luo the Teso and Turkan never practised it. In fact their Bantu neighbors consider them incomplete men for not having gone through it. During the last crisis in Kenya, a number of Luo men were victims of hooligans who cut them with crude weapons publicly in the name of initiation.
3. There are other cultural practices and beliefs among the Luo that have acted as efficient vehicles for the AIDS VIRUS to spread, and which vehicles have not been loudly condemed. These are
a. Widow inheritance
b. Polygamy
c. the tragic confusion of AIDS for Chira (a spiritual curse)
4. It is politically a minefield: even the venerable LUO COUNCIL has been unwilling to endose the circumcision message (see Kenyan reporting on this—through Google search). To the council, a circumcised Luo is not a Luo.
Last year I published the novel THE WISE ONE OF RAMOGILAND, [Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/)], and one of its chapters delt at length with the issue of Luo circumcision. The intension was to bring to the fore the various conceivable points of view in this debate. Because of the life-and-death nature of this issue, I append the chapter below for evryone’s benefit. Read it and join the Elder, and Prime Minister, Raila Odinga in the debate of the moment.
Joseph R Alila
(Author: THE WISE ONE OF RAMOGILAND; http://www.lulu.com/)
The New Ratang’a Declaration: To Circumcise or Not *
Some cultural issues can never be resolved. One such outstandingissue is “Whether a Luo Male Should be Circumcised or Not.”
The Ramogi of old had fought over whether to take their sons to school or not; whether to take their daughters to school or not; whether to initiate their young men and women or not (an activity that involved the extraction of the lower incisors plus one canine on either side); and whether to be Christians or not. These fights were won by the change-minded individuals, who, for example, foresaw long-term benefits to taking both girls and boys to school. And that fight over extracting lower, front-center six teeth would end because it didn’t look right to lose that many teeth, and still be beautiful (excuse me). Moreover, the argument that the extraction created a gap through which to pass liquids to a bedridden man, had lost to modern, medical-intervention techniques. The argument that it was a tribal mark of significance in a battlefield, lost ground to a century of relative intertribal peace, thanks to colonization, and then the birth of the Nation in that order. The dental work must have died in the 1980s.
But these cultural fights do not compare with the next generation of cultural fights precipitated by new venereal diseases. These deeply ingrained cultural practices at the center of the current fights have a religious dimension to them. These are the fights over whether or not to abolish polygamy among the Ramogi people; whether or not to abolish mandatory widow inheritance by kinsmen of a late husband. But both practices have proved to be efficient vehicles for the transmission of the new STDs, thanks to the increasingly lax-and-liberal, national morality.
Now, among the Ramogi people, Christianity had faced polygamy and widow inheritance headlong, but never won the battles because both practices had strong spiritual underpinnings to them. Among the Ramogi people, polygamy was a literal projection of power by the man because a larger family meant more men to fight wars, men to protect land, and women to own land. Polygamy also ensured genetic variety (a rainbow of bloodlines) for long-term survival of the clan: the Ramogi peoples married from outside the wider clan (exogamous). Moreover, people related through intermarriages would not fight one another.
The protagonists further argued that an orphaned child had a better survival chance under a polygamous home. The same protagonists would argue that inheriting a widow within a clan ensured the protection of the widow against abusive husbands.
It also gave the widow automatic, and enforceable, power over her own wealth and children. To ensure this control, tradition dictated that future children born between the woman and the widower must still be born in the commonwealth of the late husband—the new husband only playing a procreative, caretaker role.
Furthermore, among the Ramogi people, in any marriage, sex serves four, often, overlapping roles: There is ceremonial or ritual sex, like the conjugal activity on seeding the new earth, or on bringing the harvest home. There is procreative sex in an effort to get a child. There is sex for pleasure, as when a man must visit this or that woman in the name of fairness to all in a polygamous family unit. Finally, sex is often used as a vehicle for intimate communication between the spouses: an aggrieved woman must expect her husband by her side; a woman with a material problem would want to whisper about it with her husband in her arms; a man burdened by the complexities of the world, and aiming to use a woman’s black goat for a religious ceremony, had better chances with the woman in his arms.
In polygamous homes, achieving and maintaining order and discipline naturally meant having well-defined laws on property ownership, power structure, communal justice, and inviolable spiritual laws of life in marriage.
Observing these laws openly elevated marriage to a divine institution (as intended in the Bible), and polygamy to a complex religious institution. Polygamy is not just about sex, just as any marriage is not just about sex. Any marriage is about life. The killer STDs of the day threatened the very existence of polygamy and marriage in general, because STDs threatened life. The Wise One witnessed the beginning of a time when the Ramogi people would struggle with questions arising from this religion turned curse—marriage: Whether polygamy is a threat to life, and whether mandatory widow inheritance is a threat to life.
But the most vexing and most complex question posed to Ramogi’s Sages of the day was “Whether or not a Luo should Circumcise.” The Ramogi people do not circumcise their children. But should the Ramogi people circumcise their males as a matter of medical expediency? Perhaps, yes. But that would lead to an identity crisis. Now, other than a language that is being eroded by urbanization, the foreskin is the only thing left that differentiates a Ramogi Warrior from his Bantu neighbors.
Ramogi communities had privately mulled over this challenge until it came to the public domain, thanks to a declaration by a group of inebriated Councillors in what became known as “The New Ratan’ga Declaration.”
This matter caught the attention of The Wise One because the declaration had been made in her backyard.
One Councillor Agutu of Jokamlai Ward had invited friends (mostly fellow Councillors) from across the land to his Victory Party. Having eaten very well, the party would make its way to Ratang’a Market for some beer. It transpired that there was a spirited discussion among them as to whether the Ramogi should be circumcised or not. They would (perhaps while under the influence of alcohol), craft a declaration (subsequently distilled by a naughty Journalist) to the following effect:
“Due to The Overwhelming Medical Evidence for the fact that the rate of AIDS Transmission is Higher Among Uncircumcised Heterosexual Males than Circumcised Ones, We the Grandchildren of Ramogi Ajwan’g Declare that All of Us and Our Offspring Should be Circumcised as a Matter of Medical Necessity.”
The New Ratan’ga Declaration was published by both the Local and National media of the day. The reaction to it would spill over international boundaries and generate a very lively debate in the virtual world (cyberspace).
There were a few issues in the declaration that had raised a few eyebrows, and led to a general war cry among the children of Ramogi.
The authors of the declaration that had touched on a whole people, were some “minor” Councillors who had no authority to speak for all of the Ramogi People in the world. For one, few people had the knowledge about the veracity of the “overwhelming medical evidence:” Who had carried out the research? Who were the participants? Then there was the question of how to achieve mass circumcision of adults without proper hospitalization, and the danger of mass bacterial infection?
More important to the Ramogi people, was how to separate the person from himself. A Ramogi is not a Ramogi without his foreskin. It perhaps is OK to be circumcised before knowing a woman. How would a man circumcised in old age react to his wife? Nobody had answers to such questions.
A flurry of regional meetings would be held across Kavirondoland, in cities in the Nation, and among the Ramogi people in the Diaspora. Chat Rooms and Blogs were not spared the passionate debate. “Onagi. Be men at last. Get circumcised,” taunted one Jamwa (Alien) . . . “We will divorce you if you dare,” screamed a Ramogi woman in http://www.onagidotkom.
Eventually, Ramogi Elders and Leaders from across the land would converge on Ratang’a from where the ill-received declaration had originated. Because of the acrimony against the councillors, The Wise One would give her well-considered opinion, but only in private.
Here is a sample some of the Council Proceedings on the matter of Whether Luo Men Should Circumcise or Not.
Elder Chien’g: Clr Agutu you and your friends started all this. Do you want to apologize to this caucus before we address the issues on their own merits?
Clr. Agutu: MPs (Members of Parliament), Leaders and Fellow Councillors, I am anxious to apologize to all of you, and to the Ramogi people for what transpired in my home when a number of you were my guests. This apology is deserved because what we thought was a civilized discussion of what was already in the public domain, eventually made its way to the print media and airwaves. What pains me is the fact that my private opinion turned out to be a public position of all the politicians across Ramogiland. However, . . .”
Elder Chien’g: You mean all that appeared in the papers was your own opinion?
Clr. Agutu: Yes. I told my friends that I am a Rayuom (naturally circumcised), and don’t regret it. (There were a few giggles from reporters and some young women).
Elder Chien’g: I have no comment about that. You may continue.
Huma MP: It is your testimony that you indeed made a verbal declaration?
Clr. Agutu: Yes.
Huma MP: What do you mean by being naturally circumcised?
Clr. Agutu: I am naturally circumcised.
Elder Chien’g: That is possible, Bwana MP. And he is not going to prove it to your satisfaction. Not here (There was laughter).
Clr. Agutu: I want to ask the gathering to proceed.
There was a hushed silence.
Clr. Mary Oguta: (A Nurse by training) Councillor Agutu, is it true that there is some medical evidence to support the declaration?
Clr. Agutu: I am not a doctor. But those in the know have made the claim. Call in some of our doctors. Let them give evidence.
Elder Chien’g: We have many issues here. But can’t we start by declaring that The Ratan’ga Declaration was a farce that should never have been?
Clr. Agutu: I disagree. Let it be recorded that I have apologized for the embarrassment the whole community has suffered as a result of the words of the declaration. We are not the only race with foreskins. But let us debate the matter on its own merit because the disease is real and has no known cure. Any weapon that can be used against the disease must be considered. Let us take the evidence.
Elder Chien’g: And make another declaration?
So the debate raged on among politicians, all of whom claimed to be speaking in the people’s interest. Very few would directly support the declaration, yet all recognized its merit. It was an election year. As most politicians do when they don’t want to take a position, they called in experts in Medicine, Culture, Oral History, Trauma Psychology, Cultural Sociology, Sage Philosophers . . . the whole host of them.
The first to present a professional position was a doctor.
Dr. Oyum: Whereas circumcision does not prevent AIDS, the transmission of HIV virus is reduced in relative terms among circumcised heterosexual males than in the control group. That has been the common finding among various research bodies and universities worldwide. The warmth in an enclosed foreskin offers an ambient environment for the multiplication of the virus as it tries to locate punctured or bruised skin tissue. Exposed to the air, the virus dies in no time at all.
He proceeded to quote a number of publications that made no sense to most of the leaders. But his argument was very compelling. He also submitted that circumcision of male infants is now the standard in developed countries.
For a few minutes, nobody asked a question. Then, Councillor Mary Oguta, a politician and a retired Nurse, picked up the interrogation of Dr. Oyum:
Clr. Mary Oguta: Your sources recommend female circumcision?
Dr. Oyum: No. It won’t make a difference, given the nature of the female anatomy.
Clr. Mary Oguta: Who was part of the Control Group?
Dr. Oyum: The Uncircumcised Males.
Clr. Mary Oguta: Do you recommend the circumcision of all males?
Dr. Oyum: If they want to. It can be done. I don’t want to use the word “recommend” for all depends on corrective human behavior. I mean a moderation of our lifestyle.
Huma MP: Have you thought of the consequences of circumcising a forty-year-old man?
Dr. Oyum: What do you mean?
Huma MP: Doctor Oyum, think of all that could go wrong.
Dr. Oyum: They would get used to it.
Clr. Agutu: Are you circumcised?
Dr. Oyum: No.
Clr. Agutu: Why?
Dr. Oyum: Because I decided to watch my lifestyle (laughter).
Clr. Agutu: Don’t you think circumcising an adult would rob him of his image?
Dr. Oyum: I am not a psychologist, Councillor.
Clr. Agutu: Thank you, Dr. Oyum.
Dr. Oyum was excused. A psychologist from a local university was sworn in.
Clr. Agutu: Dr. Rapemo, what is your position on the circumcision of adult men?
Doctor Rapemo: It would rob them of their image, and confuse their self-worth.
Clr. Agutu: What do you mean, Doctor?
Dr. Rapemo: The foreskin is like a cloth. The victim would suddenly feel naked. I believe his spouse may even fail to recognize him.
Clr. Agutu: What do you mean?
Dr. Rapemo: He may even fail to perform. Become aggressive. Be unsure of himself. Become withdrawn. He won’t be a Ramogi anymore.
Clr. Mary Oguta: Thank you. But has anybody done any research into this?
Dr. Rapemo: No. I am just projecting laboratory findings with some animals.
Huma MP: Some animals?
Dr. Rapemo: Yes, some rare monkeys with a foreskin like male humans.
Clr. Mary Oguta: What were your findings?
Dr. Rapemo: They became aggressive, moody and withdrawn from female partners (laughter from observers).
Clr. Mary Oguta: I see that you have no lower teeth (laughter from observers).
Dr. Rapemo: Sure. They were extracted in my teen.
Clr. Mary Oguta: You liked the experience?
Dr. Rapemo: No. But I took it as a right of passage. I struggle with goat ribs, though (Laughter).
Clr. Mary Oguta: Are your children circumcised?
Dr. Rapemo: No comment, Councillor (he said looking in the direction of Clr. Agutu)
Elder Chien’g: Thank you for your contribution.
Having listened to twenty professional witnesses, on the final day of the three-day conference, the caucus would listen to cultural experts. As expected, the cultural experts opposed anything that would, as they put it, “make a Luo male less of a Luo.”
One old woman declared, “Having married a Jamwa (circumcised alien) by mistake, before meeting my Luo Warrior, I cannot recommend a Jamwa as a son-in-law.”
An old man declared, “I would rather die than become a Jamwa.”
To these elders, circumcising the Luo man would change him for ever. It was the last thing a Luo needed. The Luo must find an alternative to circumcision. The politicians were particularly against anything that would have angered the electorate in an election year. If there were any pro-circumcision forces in the gathering, they had shrunk back to their shells.
Finally, the chairman declared that the elders had appointed a committee that would visit with some “wise elder” in the community, and several other “wise men” in the land. He promised a statement on the “way forward” at a later date.
Now, The Wise One, always weary of publicity, had invited eight Ramogi Elders from across the Land, to her home. They had been part of the caucus. Three of them had visited her before.
“You have only one option if you don’t want to look like a fool,” The Wise One judged, after listening to the six ‘White Hairs,’ all men and women on top of their game. The group included an Engineer, a Lawyer, a Doctor, a Cultural Philosopher, a Psychologist, and a Historian. Clrs. Agutu and Chien’g were also in attendance.
“What is that?” the Lawyer asked.
“Stop meddling in the people’s affairs. Let the people decide what they want to do with themselves and their sons,” she said to the surprise of a number of the White Hairs. Most of them had assumed that as a traditional spiritual counselor, she would take a conservative anti-circumcision position.
“We stand aside as our people perish?” asked the Cultural Philosopher in disbelief.
“No. Look for cures. Tell people to change their lifestyles. If they want to circumcise their sons and themselves, let them do so. But we cannot tell an adult to get circumcised,” argued The Wise One.
“I am indeed surprised that with all the medical evidence for circumcision, you still can take such a stand.” That was from the Lady Doctor.
“I hate to say. But I don’t know how to read a doctor’s language. But my radio tells me that circumcision would save only twenty people out of a hundred. That is not good enough. I wouldn’t circumcise a whole pulation for that. Not while men still house ten women, men still cheat on their wives, women still cheat on their husbands, men are still drunk eighteen hours a day, and men still dance to every unclean, rich widow,” The Wise One parroted in unmistakable disgust.
“But if changing lifestyles can do eighty percent why not let circumcision do the other twenty percent?” asked the ever analytical Engineer.
“You got me wrong, Mr. Engineer. Let people circumcise if they want to. What I don’t want is a mass transformation of the Ramogi male into what he was not supposed to be. Circumcision of adults will have consequences we have yet to know: At least, we know that they won’t go to work for some two weeks or longer,” The Wise One offered.
“Our Doctor knows that some wounds may not heal because of preexisting conditions or unintended cross infection: those are his words; not mine,” said the Psychologist.
“And our Lawyer friend here would perhaps be overwhelmed with women seeking divorce from their changed men,” The Wise One said to a prolonged period of laughter.
“And we don’t know how a man circumcised in his old age would behave toward everyone else,” said the Psychologist. “All we know is that, like Abraham of old, he would be a changed man.” To this came another round of applause.
“A circumcised Luo man will not be a Luo anymore,” said the Oral Historian. “But as the Wise Lady says, we cannot stand on the way of change. It would also be wrong to force change upon a people. Let it come, if it must, gradually.”
“Thank you, my friend,” joined the Cultural Philosopher. “Let change be gradual. There is already a lot of change in Luo Culture: Not long ago, the Luo buried their dead in their houses so as to protect their bodies from beasts of the wild.”
“What is that?” asked the Doctor, who was the youngest among them.
“Just what I said,” responded the Cultural Philosopher.
“Not long ago we removed our lower teeth. We don’t anymore. As you can see, out of the nine in this room, the younger five have all their lower front teeth intact. That is what we mean by gradual change: Nobody passed a Ratang’a Declaration banning the dental practice. But it died because it hindered the modern Ramogi from achieving fluency in the spoken English.” There was a little truth in the last sentence. Luos have had trouble pronouncing a word like “shilling:” it came out as si-li-ng. As to whether the dental work was responsible for the minor linguistic malfunction is highly debatable.
“Clarify the burial remark you made earlier?” demanded the Lawyer.
“My friends. Many cultures in Northern Africa buried their dead in tombs,” responded the Cultural Philosopher. The Luos were no exception. If you imagine that it was unhygienic, please back off. The grave was L-shaped with the leg where the body rested outside the house.”
“As you can see, Clr. Agutu, it is wise not to issue a declaration for or against circumcision,” said The Wise One.
“I get your point, Wise One,” said Clr. Agutu.
“Inconvenient practices will die naturally. Some virulent killer-disease ended burials in houses without anybody passing a declaration,” added the Cultural Philosopher.
“What message do we take back to the caucus?” asked the Lawyer.
“That the matter has been passed on to local experts for a careful study. But meanwhile, people should change their lifestyles,” offered The Wise One.
So, the matter was left to rest: with the experts. Since then, some of the Ramogi people have been quietly circumcising their newborn sons as they await the word of the experts—they continue to wait long after The Wise One had passed on to the land of the spirits.
* Source:
(THE WISE ONE OF RAMOGILAND; by Joseph R. Alila, Lulu Books; http://www.lulu.com/)