After failing to convince the government and the people of Kenya on why they are saying NO to the proposed constitution, the Church Leaders are becoming desperate and seeing phantoms.
They have come up with a new twist that they are being demonized. By who, how and where? I would be in the front line to defend them against such persons.
If someone says NO to the proposed constitution and you ask him to defend why he is saying NO, and he gives NO convincing answers, how does that constitute to you being demonized?
Let us take the case of the Kadhi’s Courts. If we say NO because of this, we still have it in the current constitution. How will we have solved the problem?
If we say NO because of the Abortion Clause, we will still live with it in the current constitution.
But what is interesting, why hate your neighbour and his religion all of a sudden when we have lived harmoniously for ever? The Kadhi’s Courts and the clause on abortion have been with us all along and they have neither multiplied nor reduced the number of sufurias in my house.
They have never made us fight and kill each other.
They have never made us rape our mothers and sisters.
They have never made us stop stealing.
They have never made us stop being corrupt.
They have never made our roads motorable.
They have never made us to collect the garbage that is choking Nairobi.
They have never…..
So, how do you say that you are being demonized on your account of saying NO?
These are desperate attempts by the Church Leadership to sow seeds of discord amongst our people. These are desperate attempts by the Church Leadership to insight
Kenyans against each other.
After realizing that they are on their on on this NO campaign, or rather, with people who never believed in a new Kenya, the Church Leadership is now treading on the verge of Christian Fundamentalism, and this, we must not accept.
Christ came to sow seeds of unity, not disunity. And the Church Leadership must be condemned with the full force of the word.
Odhiambo T Oketch
Odhiambo oketch,
I can’t agree more. In fact there is a big difference between what the church wants and what the clergy want over this constitution. People should stop making the mistake of saying the church: its the clergy and they don’t represent the church in lay matters only on spiritual matters.
The constitution is for the laity and the laity have lay leaders: the politicians and the lay people together with a majority of their leaders want it and are for yes. The clergy like the pharisees don’t want anything to do with the new law because influence peddling will be minimised and they believe they are men of influence.
Just imagine them urging Kibaki and Raila to issue an illegal executive order to remove the kadhi’s courts and the abortion clauses. That tells you where their loyalty is and makes me as a christian want to vote YES like yesterday.
Moreover, why should a woman with her baby be condemned to die when medical help is available!!! !! What kind of madness is this? Kadhi courts is known even to mad people that they exist currently and killing the new law will not take them away.
The clergy are representing an evil force and all Christians of good will must come together and tell them that enough is enough. They must be defeated at all cost.
Sebastian
Ndugu Onyango,
I asked what kind of warped advice is this? Kill the draft, Kadhi Courts and abortion will still be in the constitution. While we know that this draft KATIBA is far better than the current one.
So, what shall the clergy have achieved? Saying NO only? I just wonder. BTW, politician don’t even care whether the KATIBA fails or not, Kibaki failed in 2005, so what? Did it stop him being a powerful president? NO.
Actually, the current constitution has served him even better and got him a 2nd term because it gave him absolute power to pick Commissioners for ECK.
It will give the next President the same, whoever it is, and the clergy maybe will find what to preach about, corruption, impunity, tribalism etc.
These are the same things the new KATIBA is trying to fix, but the clergy wants the status quo.As for the Church which is you and I, we shall vote YES even if the clergy say NO!!!
Otieno Sungu.
Katiba Sasa!!!!!
It is strange why all of a sudden some clergymen masquerading as the church are complaining over provisions that have been there for over three decades.
Is there another motive behind the stand against provisions for abortion and kadhis courts? Is it true that the rel reason behind this is the provision over land management and some churches that have previously benefited fro illegal allocation of large tracks of land fear loosing them and do not see that favor being extended to them should the new constitution pass?
As some people have said, the stand of some of this religious leaders should not surprise anybody. RELIGIOUS LEADERS WERE AT THE FORE FRONT OF OPPOSING THE MINISTRY OF JESUS. THEY ALSO LED IN CONDEMNING HIM TO CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. The reason they took a position against Jesus’ ministry is because they did not see Jesus taking care of their selfish interests. In addition Jesus always took affirmative actions towards the minorities and ‘outcasts’ like the samaritans and gentiles.
The proposed constitution does not take care of anybody’s selfish interests and upholds affirmative actions towards the ‘samaritans’ and as a result the selfish are up in arms.
May God save us all!
Kombo,
Point out the abuses, being called irrational, illogical, incoherent, unconvincing is not an abuse unless you are redefining the word abuse for us.
Do not be so taken by church so that you cannot see irrationality because you are a christian, even clergy can be irrational, they are not gods. It is only God who is perfect.
Many clergy have erred in life, they are human.Being a man of God and practicing Godliness is not the same thing as being religious, religion and God are not necessarily the same thing.
Even cults are religions.
Otieno Sungu.
Sungu,
I have already seen a reminder on netiquitte. Before its being applied, let me be more direct, a little bit.
I AM NOT A RELIGIOUS PERSON! Those who have socialised with me KNOW that i am not religious. I do not have a human being i call a mentor or look into for spiritual guidance. I am guided by ONLY one person who directs my life and make me whom i am today. The Grace of God sees me through. And that is why i am amazed by you and Oto constant insensitive attacks on Pastors. And i think ITS BECAUSE YOU ARE RELIGIOUS and this religion of YOURS let you down. I do not know why you are attacking pastors as opposed to discussing pertinent constitutional issues. Every time i open my email, i only see ‘clergy, church, pastors’…nothing to do with progressive ideas and things. Civic education is soon starting and lets go and educate people with clear minds and NOT winners and losers. Its very primitive to keep chanting ‘na hii, na hile’ We are not different from them.
Remember also that i have travelled and worked mostly in predominantly Islamic countries. Those Muslims don’t shout at minority Christians like you do. They have RESPECT, TOLERANCE, LOVE and communicate to one another with good ethics. Consider countries like Indonesia – almost 80% Muslim but you have not seen them go against one another, North Sudan (not South) – have accommodated Christian churches even in Darfur!), Timor Leste (predominantly Christian but have accommodated Muslims and they worship amongst them)
Why don’t you preach harmony, peace and love? Why every time you write its all poison, messages of hate and death! Understand that even the SDA said YES and eyt they have not even uttered a word to the Pentecostal, NCCK, Anglicans and Evangelical.
Let this forum be more visionary than a forum for noise makers…… and lets NOT be campaigners of religious war….get me?
Kombo Elijah
The making of a constitution is a secular matter, it is man making a covenant with fellow man how they shall live together, what will be acceptable or not in within their social realms.
It is for this reason that all need to be heard,they need to be heard on matters of how they wish to live their lives. The constitution is made to govern the way of life of the people. The President and the PM need to meet the clergy and dialogue with them on how they want their secular lives governed.
As for matters spirituality, they are not universal in societies, matters of faith and religion therefore have no place in the constitution unless within that faith, there are certain things which are unique to that religion for which they seek exemption to be able to deal with them in a manner that befits their religious dogma. For instance, different religions treat polygamy and monogamy differently. A universal declaration of the same may not auger well for all because some ascribe to monogamy while others ascribe to polygamy as a way of life.
Every religion needs to be heard on this score, each has an equal right to present what they think are their ways of life that they need to take care of to suit their religious dogma. These should only be limited to their adherents and adjudicated upon only where two adherents of the same faith have such issues.
This informs the basis of Kadhi Courts, they only deal with marriage, inheritance and divorce between one Muslim and another. Any other matters involving citizens of different religious affiliations will be dealt with by the law that governs that particular aspect universally within that society.
It is for this reason that Christian clergy need to be heard on their own issues of Christian way of life. The issues they raise should only be those affecting their adherents and christian way of life so that the constitution does not conflict with their religious dogma.
Muslims do not have to protests at the inclusion of Christians’ way of life in the constitution and vice versa if this is limited to only their adherents. There is a need to ensure a crisis does not arise between what the constitution stipulates and what religions teach. The dialogue is necessary to ensure the way of life of all is secured in a binding document for harmony and tranquility to prevail in society.
While doing this,all religious leaders must remember that these are secular matters, wearing religious cloth and trying to deal with secular matters which are laity in a spiritual sense can only create confusion. The stand on abortion for instance is a religious matter for which Christians cannot universally want included or not included in the constitution. It is a secular matter as well as religious. In this case, they may seek to lobby for Christians Courts where they can have it dealt with as they wish. A person who ascribes to no religion has no fear of God and therefore cannot be bound by the right to life and beginning of life as defined by a particular faith. They may look at life as beginning after birth and anything before that is not living. Scientists may have their own thinking on this.
It is good to accommodate and listen to all in this process, but only as far as they are willing to discuss issues that affect their religious way of life and dogma which if ignored may create a conflict with the secular constitution.
Otieno Sungu.
Juba-Southern Sudan.