It is unfortunate that with the new knowledge on male circumcision as a possibility of reducing spread of HIV, the Luo council of elders have consistently campaigned against it, spreading all sorts of misinformation and rumors hence denying people an opportunity to reduce the number of new infections.
This is despite the fact that the Luo council of elders is an abstract structure amongst the Luo youths and infants (the main target group of the medical intervention). Ask an ordinary Luo young man or woman (within child bearing age) about the alleged council of elders, they will tell you they know nothing: how it is formed, what they do, who chooses their chair and etc….
Their argument that they are promoting abstinence amongst the youth is baseless since medical male circumcision is not promoted on its own but is being promoted to be adopted to be used alongside other methods of HIV prevention namely Abstinence Condoms and Being faithful.
The young people of the Luo community are therefore against the stand of the unknown and unnecessary Luo council of elders. We have refused to be held hostage by a group of old men who have been overtaken by events and have refused to adopt the new ways of science and life.
LUO COUNCIL OF ELDERS GIN NG’A
Jothurwa.
Atimo mos ni an awuon an jaluo to ok ayango jogi ma luongore ni Luo Council of Elders. Ase bedo ka asomo barupe mogo mag jowadwa e mbui ni ka wuoyo kuom jogi to kata kamano pok ayude baruwa ma nyiso ni to yawagi to gin ji manade. Kuom mano daher mar kwaye ng’at mong’eyo mondo oyanga gi duoko kuom penjo gi:
Luo Council of Elders en ang’o?
Idonje gi pesa koso idonje nono?
Ji madonje oyier gi joluo koso?
Oyier gi nade (method)?
Nying’ no temo nyiso ni gin ji ma otegno (elderly). Ngato nyaka bed ja higni adi eka dobed ja kanyo?
Kaka sani giko ngima mar dhano (life expectancy) e Luo Nyanza en higni 29 kende, jodongo ma jo higni 25 kanyo nyaka 29 bende oyienegi bedo jokanyo.
E gweng’wa ma Kisumo Karateng’, jaduong’ mane ma jakanyo?
Gin gi mbui margi ma di asomie mondo ang’e mang’eny kuomgi?
Ka gichiwo puonj ne jotendwa kak Raila, kata Orengo, kaka aneno ka gise bedo ka gitimo, gichiwe ni gichung’ne (represent) gin giwegi, koso gichiwe kak joma ochung’ ne Luoduto?
Yie ukonya gi duoko jothurwa mong’eyo.
An jakuodho oyie dhaw)
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:14:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Riaga Ogalo
Subject: Male Circumcision and HIV in Luo Nyanza
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Male circumcision is a political scheme to depopulate the Luos
By Rev Okoth Otura
www.eactmf.org
In the 1980’s the Kenya government under Ex-President Moi, perceived Luo wife inheritance, polygamy and ” Chira” traditions and customs cultural practices as the main cause and reason of high rate of HIV/Aids death in Nyanza, the theory which his regime use as tool to eliminates Luos dissidents and population through Health Care Services across the board.
The late Jaramogi Oginga Odinga security intelligence established under classified information in 1990’s, that all Government Hospitals and Clinics in Luo Nyanza were supplied with un-sterile Medical Instruments and thus, many HIV/Aids infections were spread through Un-sterile Medical Injections, Dental/Surgeon Instruments, contaminated multy-dose vials, maternity delivery rooms,( luo children umbilical cords were cut by un-sterile instruments)
A part from other HIV/Aids contraction super highway in luoland, the Kenya government significantly contributed through Health Care Services of transmission and spread among the Luos in Kenya as a persecution due to their opposition stand against the corruption government system.
Despites all these the Luos still overcame this atrocities, and latter Moi had to declare the HIV/Aids a disaster after other tribes were infection increased in alarming rate.
Meanwhile, I support the Luo Counsel of Elders stand to resist the current attempt by the Kenya government to impose male circumcision a health policy on luos. The scientific experience which has failed elsewhere should not be used on the luos just for the sake to please the West. We are perplexed with perpetuation of the Kenya government to have the Luos whip out on the Kenyan map. Let consider:
· Uganda is the leading country in prevention against HIV/Aids in world, with the entire tribes not practicing circumcisions except the Bagisu and the Muslims, and yet they rejected the male circumcision, even threaten to ban the tradition and practice.
· South Africa is the hardest hit with HIV/AIDS despite male circumcision as customary practice by all the tribes and with provision the best Health Care system in the world.
Some luo elites heads the most busy body NGO’s in Kenya under the influenced of the west and therefore, instead of majoring on the major cause of spread of HIV/Aids which is mainly cultural sexual behavioral, poor Health Care Services and poverty, they decided to have Luo community to be their ‘money bag’ ‘Ginny pig’ (By trial and Error) for west.
In fact the HIV/Aids among the west is currently spreading in threaten pace, and yet they are not circumcised. Why don’t they have their people frog match for forceful circumcision before imposition fail system on the Africans?
It devastating for the Luos MPs to keep silent
The battle on the HIV/Aids needs political will, the Luos MP’s and Leaders must step up campaign against this busy body NGO’s trying to intimidated and spread stigma among the luo community.
http://majimbokenya.com/home/2008/07/23/male-circumcision-is-a-political-scheme-to-depopulate-the-luos-in-kenya/
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: ndebele okoth
Subject: Male circumcision is a political scheme to depopulate the Luos
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Fellows:
This circumcision theory does not fit very well into the scientific world. We do know today a lot how people get the HIV-virus (the virus causing AIDS). There are societies which does not practise circumcision and are still having the lowest number of HIV/AIDS affected people. Take for example Finland, the country does not practice male circumcision and still they have the lowest number of HIV/AIDS almost in the whole world so how do you explain that.
We do know that HIV-virus is transmitted through sexual contact with an infected person, by sharing needles and syringes (primarily for drugs) with some one who is infected. You get HIV through transfusion of infected blood or blood clotting. Babies born to HIV-infected women may become infected before or during birth or through breast feeding after birth. In health care workers have been infected with HIV after being stuck with needles containing HIV-infected blood . We do know that HIV is found in blood, semen, vaginal fluid, breast milk, saliva, tears, urine, feces, vomit of an infected person ( saliva, sweat, tears have low quantity of HIV).
Remember in all the above I have mentioned these words: OF, OR, WITH AN INFECTED PERSON`.
Male circumcision should ONLY be considered s AN ADDITIONAL means of preventing HIV in a region with high prevalence of infection. Circumcision alone DOES NOT prevent from getting the HIV/AIDS. So how does circumcision works: It is believed that the minor surface of the foreskin contains Langerhan`s cells with HIV receptors, these cells are likely to be the primary point of viral entery into the penis of uncircumsied. I personally and some other doctors do not believe this theory as such. What we do know is that men who are not circumcised do have soft skin penis head or the region where the forskin joins the penis is soft and during sexual intercourse some end up getting injury easily and through those injured points or vessels the HIV enters the blood stream. The circumcised individual loses almost all these soft sensitive skin and in life the outer part of the penis head get to be just as hard as the ordinary outer protective skin which hardly get injured during sexual intercourse.
We do know today that you cannot get HIV/AIDS through food, drink, you can not get it through towels, or sheets, you can not get it from swimming pools, toilet seats, in social contact, hugging, touching.
PREVENTION:
-Condoms have been proved to be very effective during sexual contact with an individual who has the HIV or any person you are not sure of.
_ Avoid unpretective sex.
-Luos should just avoid wife inheritance, especially widows whose husbands have died of HIV/AIDS, This is the major TABU in luoland and can be one of the major reason why in Nyanza there is relatively higher rates of HIV/AIDS disease. Or many wives where one man hardly satisfies all, therfore some women end up looking for passion outside the marriage.
– Frunkness, being just and telling the truth about HIV/AIDS, and people who have the disease should stop infecting the innocent ones. Some shot of punishment to those who go on intesionaly infecting others.
– Mothers with HIV should be identified earlier and incase of pregnancy should be given anti HIV drug and bresat feeding should be prohibited on these infected women.
-Hospitals should be provided with dispossible needles, scapels, gloves,paper clothes, syringes etc.
_Physicians or nurses who have HIV should be prohibited from carry delicate operations where it is easy to cut himself and his blood end up entering the patients blood . Or Doctors operating on HIV patients should also be very careful not to get cutting themselves during operation or stuck by the same needles they have used on patients.
– Drug addicts should be provided with free sterile and dispossible needles and syringes etc.
CIRCUMCISION ALONE DOES NOT PREVENT FROM GETTING THE HIV/AIDS; PEOPLE JUST NEED TO WAKE UP AND KNOW THAT AND IT IS THE TRUTH. having sex with an healthy perway or avoiding having sex with people you do not know their HIV status.
I will leave you with these words; `Do not worry that others have failed to appreciate your talent; worry that you have not yet discovered and eliminated your own faults. Further, to recognize your own faults without working to eliminate them is truly WRONG`. So luos forget about circumcision but remember to eliminate your FAULTS. Mps can only make sure that the hospitals are equiped with dispossible, needles, operative instruments, syringes etc, arrange for sexual education in schools or in public places etc. BUT the MPs will hardly tell you who your sexual partner is or with whom you should go to bed with. Each and every man or woman will have to carry his/her own cross on this issue.
Paul Nyandoto
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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:27:50 +0300
From: Paul Nyandoto
Subject: Vs: Male circumcision is a political scheme to depopulate the Luos
Jadolo Okoth,
Greetings, and thank you for the battles you continue to fight on behalf of your country and your people and the truth.
Circumcision, among the many communities in which it is a mandatory practice has both a physical as well as a spiritual (religious) angle to it— what they call “the right (rite) of passage.” For this reason alone, mass circumcision of male Luos cannot be enforced, because it never was part of our religious rites. The consequences of such an action would be demaralizing to the extent that we would cease to be a people. The Council of Elders, having traced our historical as well as anthropological journey, is therefore right in resisting “mass circumcition” of the Luo.
But if I choose to circumcise my newborn son and myself, I have every right to do so.
Now, AIDS is a “behavior problem” that has challenged and knocked down such pillars of our cultural practices as polygamy and widow inheritance. It must be fought through “behavior change” (abstinenence, one man one wife, keeping youths meaningfully engaged in school, work, community work, vocational traing, spiritual training and counseling!) and “hygenic practices” at every level. Circumcision is being marketed as a “hygenic practice,” but like the use of the condom, it offers a false sense of security!
JR Alila (Author)
RATENG’ AND BRIDE (www.createspace.com, 2008)
“THE WISE ONE OF RAMOGILAND”(www.lulu.com, 2007) in which I dressed this matter of “To Circumcise or Not”:
Hi Dr Nyandoto,
thank you for the eductaive contribution to the ISSUE of our times!
Sure, we have to constantly reflect on our FAULTS and bagges! And change.
-we buried people in houses! we no longer do!
-we married ten wives; AIDS has said no to this!
–we extracted sis of our teeth we no longer do!
–But can we circumcise a male at 45 years? Well, Abraham did it at 99 years, but he became a “changed man.” We will become a “changed people” if we do!
JR Alila (Author)
1. “RATENG’ AND BRIDE (a poem)”( http://www.createspace.com, 2008)
2. “SUNSET ON POLYGAMY” (www.publishamerica.com, 2007)
An anthropological journey in Luo marriage and the reality of the NEW DISEASE (read AIDS).
THE GREATES DANGER ON MALE CIRCUMCISION
Much as up to 60% of the circumcised men might escape inffection with the HIV there definitely will be very serious consequences, thus:
1.Circumcised men will be thinking that they will be safe from contracting the disease and in so doing contract it, spread it and finally die of it.
2.Women will prefer the circumcised men thinking that they are indeed safer but at last contract it, spread it and die.
Anti-retroviral treatment fools people making them complecent and therefore thinking that they are strong and healthy and so return to unsafe sex, thus spreading it or acquiring type 1 or type 2 depending on the first to attack, thus spreading the disease further. Many people on it have died in spite of and despite their use.
HIV/AIDS infection rate is highest in Zambia, Botswana, Lesotho, Swasiland and the Republic of South Africa where circumcision rate is nearly 100%. What then can we say? That circumcision spreads the disease!?
Strict adherence to the famous ABCs and the individual discipline and determination not to contract the disease will make the virus rarer and then disappear.
The Himbas of Namibia despite and in spite of poligamy and wife inheritance have HIV/AIDS infection rate of less than 3%!! What then can we say? That poliganmy and women inheritance prevent the infection!?
Alcohol controlling the physique and mind wf persons will speed up our demise if care is not taken.
The disease has spread in Nyanza not only because of women inheritance and poligamy but also the fact that when the virus first rared its ugly head the Luos, particularly the most educated ones were the leading doubting Thomases who were saying dhiang’ tho gi lium e dhoge, lwang’ni tho mana e adhola, AIDS en two kaka mamoko manego ji!! Kaka accident di negi e kaka AIDS bende.
To the women living with HIV/AIDS and yet deliver babies I suggest that they express their breast milk and make porrige with it then feed the babies. Since the virus dies at temperatures above 60 degrees centograde as opposed the boiling point of porrige which boils at slightly above 100 degrees centigrade the virus will have no chance of surviving in that kind of porrige! Besides the virus does not live beyond 5 minutes outside the human body environmet like that of boiling porrige.
I stand challenged!
DR. ODIDA OKUTHE, MD.
Male Circumcision:
All manner of attempts have been made by people i will not name to portray anything Luo as very backward and should be abandoned. These are jsut ways that other people want to colonize us mentally so that we should be proud of ourselves.Why are outsiders so concerned about our welfare more than ourselves? Let us never be fooled that those people have our welfare at heart. They don’t want us and will stop at nothing till they finds ways and means of destrying us. We have the brain to find soultions to our problems.
Let us stop and think before we jump to circumcision as the devine solution to HIV. Let the circumcised prove that indeed Circumcision is the solution.
Meanwhile, let us behave responsibly and multiply before we become erelevant in our country.
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I doubt that circumcision is a plot against the Luos in particular, because the same people promoting it in Kenya are “rolling it out” in several other parts of Africa.
In the Kenya trial, they circumcised 1,391 men and left a similar number (the control group) intact. Less than two years later, 22 of the circumcised men had HIV, and 47 of the control group.
If that was the whole story, that means it would take 30 circumcisions for each transmission prevented – much more where people are practising ABC, because circumcising can only help people of unsafe practises. That is not good value for money (compared to other things the doctor could be doing, or compared to other ways of preventing AIDS transmission), and it is not the whole story. 140 circumcised men (and 133 of the controls) didn’t finish the experiment and we don’t know if they got HIV or not. They were encouraged to find out for themselves, though, and if you had been painfully marked “to prevent HIV” and then found you had it, would you go back?
The Rev. Otura makes some good points about other ways of preventing HIV/AIDS that would be more effective.
There is really nothing to discuss, the jury is in, male circumcision reduces the risk of female to male HIV transmission of over 60%. Who says so? WHO and UNAIDS, read here:
New Data on Male Circumcision and HIV Prevention: Policy and Programme Implications
http://data.unaids.org/pub/Report/2007/mc_recommendations_en.pdf
“Conclusions and Recommendations
Conclusion 1: The research evidence is compelling
The research evidence that male circumcision is efficacious in reducing sexual transmission of HIV from women to men is compelling. The partial protective effect of male circumcision is remarkably consistent across the observational studies (ecological, cross-sectional and cohort) and the three randomized controlled trials conducted in diverse settings.
The three randomised controlled trials showed that male circumcision performed by well-trained medical professionals was safe and reduced the risk of acquiring HIV infection by approximately 60%.
The efficacy of male circumcision in reducing female to male transmission of HIV has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. This is an important landmark in the history of HIV prevention.
Recommendations :
1.1 Male circumcision should now be recognized as an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention.
1.2 Promoting male circumcision should be recognized as an additional, important strategy for the prevention of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men.”
I wish to post just a few remarks regarding the circumcision debate. I concur with Rev. Otura and Dr. Odida. I believe the western World do not undergo the operations, and are also victims of the scourge, the difference is that they have better health care services, so whay the fuss? In any case, there was some finding recently concerning the HIV infections in Nyanza which has got to do with the genetic make up of the people. So why not explore all the options before jumping in the bandwagon of circumcision. I am a mother and I do not subscribe to it. Wan joulo period not mwache hallo!
HU,
were these people awre that they were part of an experiment?
Did they live in the same environment?
How many were practising Christians, Muslims, Judaists,…?
Promiscuity (sexual) is a trait some of us are born with, is cultural: Were all the participants Luos?
How many of the participants were polygamists?
How about the ages of the participants?
Even if I am not a doubter, I believe we should circumcise a whole tribe without answering the above questions.
Can you refer me to the original paper?
JR Alila
Luos should be VERY VERY CAREFUL! in this matter of circumcision, it is also possible to spread HIV Virus to all men who get circumcised! It is very possible to erase all luos through this method. We live in a wretched world full of evildoers with evil schemes rooted somewhere within the evil realms.
Where did this idea come from? Why now?I pray that the eyes of the luos will be opened so that they may see the other side of the coin. It is an easy way to give each one, one virus… besides this, we are in a research era and research is being carried out daily. May we not be the guinea pigs for a research we dont know.
Let us consider carefully, all this, even if this message is from our trusted brother.
This data makes me thing that people can do almost anything. For example who would think fifty years ago about who would think about current USA politics?