“Mumia H. N.”
date Oct 4, 2009 1:14 AM
subject The Bible..

Dear YPs,

Is it possible that the Bible is one book that has brought us so much confusion? We have changed our culture and values because of this Bible book and what is written in it. I think Africans should go back to their roots, and realize that we brought up real men through cultures like polygamy. A man or woman learnt real values in the traditional culture. We had our own beliefs. We did not need some fake preacher to tell us how to get saved and live life.

Our systems were working.

There was respect, honor, real values. Real discipline. We had the whole community getting involved in the affairs of our children.

I submit that the Bible was the beginning of our downfall as Africans. We were colonized by religion. We need to open this for discussion.

What do you say?

Mumia

kennedy waweru
date Oct 4, 2009 11:15 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Greetings Bwana Mumia

I beg to differ with your point of view, and it honestly is not a valid point at all. The Bible has not taught us how to live in sin at all, if anything it is the complete disregard of what the Bible stands for that has brought our downfall. We may have changed our culture because of the Bible, but have we stuck with the Bible?

Along the way, some have strayed from the Bible teachings and that is not the fault of the Bible.

Remember, not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is really a follower of Christ. If we adhered to the teachings of the Bible as a community, then believe it that there would not be a pleasant place to be as in that community

Kind Regards,
Kennedy Waweru

God is the epitome of sanity, while Satan is the epitome of a world, and of people, gone mad

Dan Nyutu
date Oct 4, 2009 3:01 PM
subject Re: The Bible..

Mumias,

i greatly differ with you. The Bible came in to shed the light to our hearts. It gives us the mind of our Creator and helps us to align our thoughts and behaviours more to what He expects of us.

As bwana Kennedy said, its the lack of adherence to godly principles that has brought us the downfall. remember if we loved one another as the Bible urges us, we wouldnt kill, not steal, no corruption, no wars, money intended for hospitals, education, roads would be spent on such.

Dan.

samuel njoroge
date Oct 5, 2009 7:39 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

MR Mumia i don’t want to sound rude but i think you have missed the whole point ,it is not the BIBLE that has colonized us it is the western culture teachings and practices that stink ,mind you the bible is the constitution between God and “christians” . i think the reason why they introduced the so called freedom of worship is for people like you, just practise what you feel like but dont critisize others , no body forces you to do what the bible says and so i think you should practise what you think is good for you , some of us don’t even know about the traditional practises u r talking about and won’t like to be associated with them either.oops sorry but thats the way i see it.

lastly don’t confuse yourself.talk about the western culture and not the BIBLE. very few understand it .and it will alwayz remain like that .

blame the west and not the bible please.

okello emmanuel
date Oct 5, 2009 10:31 PM
subject Re: The Bible..

I think Mumia has a point. Even Kenyatta said, “those guys came holding a bible, and told us to shut our eyes and pray. By the time we said Amen, we were holding their bible, and they had our land.”

ACTUALLY, religion is a weapon. Anyone who tries changing another person’s religion is an enemy for which most religions prescribe a death penalty. EVEN christianity. Some of our cultural practices were repugnant and had to change, but my view is that the bible has complicated matters. Especially coz it is interpreted inconsistently.

Check this true story: A POLICEMAN on Saturday caught his wife in action with a pastor at two afternoon in a lodging in Kisumu. He forced the two love birds to march through town completely naked, until other cops had to intervene after about two Km. Now, everyone puts the words Pastor and Bible in one category.

kennedy waweru
date Oct 6, 2009 1:31 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Isn’t it the same Bible which says that

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2 Peter 2:1-2 (KJV)

Yes, they are there today and have made the way of truth be spoken evil of just like you have done. But the simple questions is this, if you have your own traditional way as you propagate and several of the elders (which still used to happen) preach water and drink wine, does it make your traditions bad? If two of your siblings are thieves and two are not does it make your parents bad parents? does it mean the parents taught them how to steal? of course the focus will be on the thieves (and media attention) and not on the other two who are good citizens.

Even as the Bible foretells of false prophets and teachers, when we do stumble across them we tend to render the Bible as false…isn’t that ironic? How many true Christians exist today…many. Have you tried to highlight them…or is it the stray seeds that are more interesting? Tell me of which system that ever existed in this world where there was no stray seeds, even the traditional ones?

I have read of true Christians in our recent times who have gone to a point of death for the sake of others. Maybe we should try to take a look at them as well as we also look at bad seed just to ensure we are not bias.

Kind Regards,
Kennedy Waweru

God is the epitome of sanity, while Satan is the epitome of a world, and of people, gone mad

joyce sambu
date Oct 6, 2009 2:50 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Surely the bible cannot be blamed for the erosion of values in our
society. What about the people who do horrible things in the name of
‘African culture?’ What do you blame that on?

From: joseph nyongesa
Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 12:03:55 PM
Subject: Re: The Bible..

The bible as it is now, is to be blamed. It has been too much “doctored”. Any one who has studied biblical greek and hebrew can tell so. And the reason is mainlyl this. Taht the original languages in which the bible was written have a wider semantic range ie meaning range…so that often we dont have suitable english equivalents. And so that i dont seem to be beating around the air(aimlessly that is for beating the air in itself is not bad), let me give one illustration.
Rom 8:31. Most translations use the conditional “if” God is for us but in the greek text it is the factual “since” God is for us who can be against us.
Now that is just a tip of the iceberg. Some of this things if we get to know them…..

Cheers.

From: Jerry Manu
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 05:47:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Bible..

Joseph,

I would beg to differ with you the language usage has been done over time to make it more easier for people to understand and read. Take for example the verses you have just given because one has used if and the other since does it change the meaning to an ordinary person with basic English command?.

To be frank the Bible gives the way forward at the same time it warns of the dangers you will encounter as you move on.

The Bible was given to guide the Christians on how to keep their faith but when you study the Bible for educational purpose you are bound to find it weird the way you are putting it just remember the guys who were building ‘MNARA’ to reach God what happened to them.

Believe me if you interview those who do the confused things and they know the Bible they will talk about have been Christian but they have backslide that mean they know they are doing contrarily to what the Bible teaches.

Cheers
Jerry.

“simba@ . . . ” days ago)
date Oct 7, 2009 4:01 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Manu,

There is a big difference betweeb if and since. ‘Since’ is definite, while ‘if’ is suggestive. “If God is with you” means there are chances he might not be with you. Since God is with you means it has already been decided he is with you.

Unfortunately the book you mentioned in its present form is source of the worst obscenities. Talk of rape, homosexuality, incest, harems, drunkerdness, murder, prostitution etc. I do not know why the church condems these vices yet anybody who reads the bible is able yo pick up ideas and practice them.

Simba

okello emmanuel
date Oct 8, 2009 2:42 PM
subject Re: The Bible..

What I see in all the mail on this subject are the two common words, “I THINK”. That is enough reason to get us thinking. Everyone should let everyone think, but the Bible should ideally not be open to discrete interpretation. There should be one version from which then, we would be able to share one with another. As things stand now, the bible is no longer one book, because you can never quote a single verse without clarifying which version you are quoting from. I THINK.

Jerry Manu
date Oct 9, 2009 2:05 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Okello,

Thank you for your obersavation, The Bible is one what you are talking about are different versions which if you are a born again Christian should not bother you because you will always walk with a helper known as the Holy spirit Jesus knew people will have these problems and when he was going back to heaven promised the discipals that he will send them a helper remember the great teacher by the name Nicodemus went to Jesus at night because he was a learned person and was percived so in the face of the people.

Maybe i can give a simple anology mobile phone chargers come in different shape and specification but you go to a shop you ask for a mobile charger the shopkeeper will ask you for which model phone but they are all charger they draw power from the same national grid. Graham Bell discovered the telephone have you ever heard of any other discovery? do we still have the Graham model? but aren’t they all drawing from Graham master piece.

Jerry

okello emmanuel
date Oct 9, 2009 4:42 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Hey. JERRY, I thought the Catholic Bible has more books than the Protestant one?

Then the protestant one has more versions than I can keep track of. And THEN, even the protestants cannot agree on what their Bible says, and they frequently have to resort to Pangas and RUNGUs to sort their issues out. Honestly, what do Christians expect observers to think?

Josiah ogalo
date Oct 9, 2009 5:42 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Simba,

You are attacking God as having inspired obscenities in complete ignorance my brother. First and foremost whatever was written in the bible was to warn us and show us the truth as it is, that which holy. The bible has account of good happenings and bad ones……same to quaran. Whatever is called “Jihad”……so what does the the quaran say? Doe it have historical account of what things happened? If so there must be some bad occurences, however if it doesn’t, then when was it written? I may launch an investigation into the origins of quaran at this point.

Well I also tend to think moslems are the worst pretenders……..If you give me quaran then I shall be able to read for you a few sections which moslems don’t fulfil and a few sad accounts of bizzare happenings. The fact that some bizarre occurences are recorded in the bible does not mean that God condones such acts…….so would be conclude that God allowed those acts to happen!

By nature we human beings are the ones capable of doing nasty things ourselves…..remember massacres in world history {Adolf Hitler} because we have free will and conscience.

The fact that some bizzare happenings are recorded in the bible does not mean God condons evil…….”He lives in inapproachable light, and in Him there isn o darkness, righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne, he sits on high and darkness surrounds him”

Please, you’re arguing from a very shallow and uninformed point of view!

Regards
Josiah

Josiah ogalo
date Oct 9, 2009 6:52 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Okello,

I am not God to judge anyone…….what faith or religion are you?

Yes the same bible speaks of “hypocrites” meaning, there are some “wanna be’ christians. At this stage let us not get into debate of who is a genuine christian or who is a “hypocrite”…..all shall be known whe God finally judges the world and reveals to us who his true sons and daughters are!!!

Do not criticize the bible or christianity on the basis of only one aspect alone……..have a holistic appreciation of facts about it. The fact that some people fight yet they call themselves christians doesn’t make the faith a failed one, furthermore even you have your personal sins which you commit against the faith you uphold……..don’t you. If you’re perfect then you’d be staying with the gods in that other world!

Excuse us……

Regards
Josiah

kennedy waweru
date Oct 9, 2009 7:55 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

I really find this strange manu. Just like you have said that you picked a copy of the star and there was a picture of a naked pastor and lover, does it mean the management of the star condone that behavior?

Come on bwana, read exactly what you have stated and see if God condones it!! Not skimming through the Bible looking for small patches of reported incidents without knowing what exactly God has to say about it.

Kind Regards,
Kennedy Waweru

God is the epitome of sanity, while Satan is the epitome of a world, and of people, gone mad

Random Notes
date Oct 9, 2009 8:53 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Brothers

When one reads the bible is one supposed to read what it says and take it literally or is there a another meaning other than what it says? Take for example from Leviticus – 27 ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads…” and from Exodus 22:18 18 “Do not allow a sorceress to live” These biblical verses were quoted and used by Christians to murder thousands of women more than 1500 years into the Christian era. Did God allow Christians to do this? Is there some context we are missing? Would it be wrong if one took these verses to mean we all have a duty to kill witches? Is the bible to be taken literally or do we ignore parts of it like these?

The parable of the great supper (Luke 24: 14-23) was used by Christians as justification to torture other human beings who were non-believers for centuries in order to compel them to join their faith. Why did God allow this? (Modern translators e.g. NIV realised the danger of these verses and have now “translated out” the word “compel” from this verse but kept the meaning.)

Atrocities by Hitler anyone? – well, God of the old testament has some of his own too – he clearly commanded his people to commit genocide, he commits infanticide on innocent first-borns in Egypt because of the Pharaoh’s stubbornness and in probably the most notorious in 1 Samuel 15:3 he issues a direct command “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys”. Did he allow this or command it? Why? Clearly this is immoral by every measure of our morality. The story of Noah demonstrates that because God is unhappy with the wickedness of man, he decides to do something about it himself. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah’s family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history (though I don’t believe this story – it illustrates the point well) – it is easy to become numb to all the killing and murder in this book.

These points I raise is not to denigrate the bible or your faith but to show you that the bible is questionable and cannot be used as an absolute truth or moral authority in our lives today. You must test everything you read including the bible and filter it through your intellect. Do you know that just about 150 years ago Christians owned other human beings (just like we own livestock)? Why did God allow this?

It is not shallow and uninformed to question the Bible, it an act of enlightenment.

The Bible is an ancient work that has not changed with the times while our knowledge and enlightenment has grown with time. Much of the morality in the bible (especially in the Old Testament) is hopelessly out of tune with today’s world – and must be questioned for relevance and/or usefulness.

Regards
Random

kennedy waweru
date Oct 9, 2009 2:25 PM
subject Re: The Bible..

If God is the creator, the giver of life, isn’t it within His rights to take away that life. Oh yes, now we have the wisdom to question His ways and His morality…

But I thank God for it is by faith that the righteous shall live. And not only did He take away the lives of those who sinned before, but He has promised to do so again. He didn’t spare the angels who sinned and will not spare us who sin just because based on our wisdom it is immoral. It is Him who gave and Him alone has the right over life. Do I question that, no I won’t for my wisdom is nothing compared to His…unless off course the God we believe in is a man.

Christians, I always do say this; that salvation and the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Choose to follow the wisdom of man, but just before you do, take your time to see where that wisdom is taking him…take a look around you at the emerging world where people have chosen not to retain the knowledge of God in them.

kind Regards,
Ken

David Kilonzi
date Oct 9, 2009 6:05 PM
subject Re: The Bible..

People,

If you think the bible is confusing or brought western culture to us, try aethism or tradistional religion. My grandmother, before she passed away, used to tell us we should never stop going to church because before she was baptized and became a christian, she was in bondage of ghosts and spirits of ancestors who used to visit at night and beat them up if there was no food in the pot! This ended abruptly the day she was baptized!

so I would wish those who want to be go back to traditional ways to do so and share us their experience down the line

festus ouko
date Oct 10, 2009 5:23 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Hi,

It is indeed healthy to discuss the holy book objectively for God himself says come let us reason together and worship the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind. However, it is tantamount to taking a retreat from reality to state that just because the bible sites cases of sin it condones it.

Simba, the true mirror of the heart beat of God is the bible in it’s entirety-it’s gist and prime message. It would also be well advised and worthwhile to study the biographies of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Christianity is not had,it is impossible through human strength. God seeks a relationship with his most precious creation, you and me. No wonder Jesus ransomed us with his life.

If you need to exchange ideas on this subject or any other, you are also welcome to meet.

Great Moi day or is it heroes day?

Ouko

okello emmanuel
date Oct 11, 2009 6:01 AM
subject Re: The Bible..

Hi, Jerry. I am not saying anyone is good or bad. All I am saying is that as things are, any dispassionate observer would be confused. The Bible itself says, quoting Jesus, “YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS.” Meaning, according to me, that we can look at someone and know whether they are a true follower of Christ or not. What puts me off are some ppl who appear to prescribe standards for others while ignoring the realities on the ground, or addressing others as if they are silly.